liamstliam | East Kingdom, Crown List is out!

Interesting (to me) that the further down the list I go, the less I know people. :-) I think I grow old.

I'm bothered to see that the list has the same couple twice, as they are fighting for each other (they should just appear once), and that in general the list is organized by rank of men, never women.

I think I grow old. :-)

ms_memory can explain it better, but from what I understand there's a series of "title groups", so all the Royal Peers are together, all the other Patent holders, all the Grant Holders, all the Award holders...etc. The list that was published has them grouped by title group but not organized by actual Precedence within those groups (it's just alphabetical right now)

And I think the other bits will get cleaned up after the list is confirmed.

I'm an old war-horse herald. I know. :-)

But consider, for example, Ogedai/Nataliia. Ranked by his precedence, not hers. Consider that Gabriel/Sonja are listed once by his precedence, once by hers.

What should the precedence level of a couple be? Traditionally, it has been by the higher of the pair. In this case, however, it is clear to me that the precedence ordering (even though this is far from the final ordering) is skewed a lot by either gender bias or, perhaps, the combatant and not the couple's overall precedence.

I'd like to think it was the combatant's precedence - perhaps that would explain the list (like your position in it) better.

In any case, I'm feeling old. :-)

I assume they are all listed by the fighter's precedence (and I assume in the final list Gabriel & Sonya will only be on there once). I believe I was told once that the East has always gone by the Precedence of the Fighter.

Someone may have told you that, but they were mistaken.

I have seen it done with the order of precedence by couple (that is, whoever is higher).

(It is usually done by the fighters' precedence.)

Right now, if you go by fighters' rank, Lord Ulfr Stevenson will be 43rd or 44th. He got his AoA at War of the Roses.

If they go with the precedence of the couple, he's standing there at 10th, behind Count Griffyth and ahead of the highest-ranking knight (Kenric?), because he's fighting for Alethea.

Because I like playing the IKA game, when the couples are announced on the day of the tourney, what precedence is used in the East?

How about other kingdoms?

Ealdormere has always gone by precedence of the higher ranking member of the couple. So if you have your AoA and fight for a Duke or Duchess, the couple is ordered in the procession with the Dukes and Duchesses.

Usually, the Order of Precedence is determined by the fighter's precedence.

I have seen it done by the couple's precedence (highest member of the couple).

See the example about Alethea.

I have never seen it done by the couple's precedence in all the times that I have been fought for. I joked about it once to explain to Ajax why we were so far up, but I was joking about it.

They also have some of the titles wrong, Ogedei is a Don and that is not listed and there was one other error, they didn't list that Elizabeth is a baroness.

You are right though, they often clean this up when they line us up, IF they line us up.

I am old school in that I think there should be some dedicated time to making this ABOUT the consorts as well as about the fighting. What I was told from way back is that fighting is FOR someone, that they are the inspiration.

The current system does not reflect this. Grumble.

I honestly thought there was a time when your peerage moved you and your consort up.

Maybe I got taken in by the Ajax joke. ;)

Caitlin admitted there were some rought edges. I suppose there's a balance in getting it close to perfect and in getting it out quickly.

It has happened in the past. When I was still EK MoL (those where the days...) it was the "normal" way to do it. Ivan got pulled way up in the line the year he fought for Nicolette (her peerage predates his by a couple of years) although now that I think on it she might have been fighting as well....

As I have been lectured about today the east kingdom dosnt subscribe to the white scarf treaty so there are no Dons made or recognized in the east. it is courtesy and dosnt deal with precedence.

The don on the list has Don as part of there name not a fencer. (he is my sweeties squire)

*jumping on the grenade*

"Don" is a title conferred to those who receive the high order of merit award of the OGR.

The high orders of merit are ranked above the "regular" AoAs, so it is appropriate. If there was a specific title that went with Crescents or Maunches, then that would be approrpiate too.

Besides it's courtesy.

(This is not a knock on the list. It was put together and gotten out quickly. I am sure it will be all spiffy for Crown.)

bwahahah

I have heard this all day now I can tell him to shush.

thank you

ash

Liam's got it partly right. I'm going to put on my Elmet Herald hat (Deputy for Heraldic Education) and fill in all the gaps.

There's a ruling from the SCA College of Arms from 1991 that anyone with an AoA can use the title "Don." If you look at the reserved alternative titles for Spanish persona established by the College of Arms, you see Don/Dona listed as the equivalent of "Lord." http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html#table2

So, if you have a Spanish persona, at least an AoA, and you're using the title Don or Dona, you are absolutely within the permissible practices of the SCA. Thus, "Don Luis de Castilla" and "Dona Estrella de los Confinos," to use two examples, are completely proper in their usages.

For reasons lost to the mists and fogs of history, courtesy practice across the SCA calls Golden Rapiers and White Scarves "Dons." Since those awards carry at least an AoA, that's kosher too.

If you don't have a Spanish persona, and you fence, and you're using the title "Don" without the benefit of the appropriate fencing awards, it would be considered vastly impolite. I don't know of anyone who's ever tried to do this.

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re: and the An Tir one being given in morning court

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Re: and the An Tir one being given in morning court

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...well, yes, but one traditionally uses an individual's preferred title (which can certainly be Don/Dona, in the case of an OGR), and the OGR is an Order of High Merit, so from a precedence PoV, the White Scarf Treaty is totally irrelevant in this situation.

thank you I have been hearing this all day (grumpy knight is grumpy)

OK, not to further stir things up, but White Scarves are not recognized in the East? Usually Kingdoms recognize awards from other kingdoms, but below awards of the same level from their own Kingdom with matching AoA's, GoA's. So if someone has a White Scarf from one of the Kingdoms where it also comes with a Grant of Arms, would that not matter? (Or would one say "we do not recognize your White Scarf, but we will recognize the Grant of Arms part?)

In the most general case, Kingdoms respect foreign awards only insofar as they contain elements of awards that use the SCA definitions (Grant, Award).

Some Kingdoms have treaties with neighbors that specify and define the depth of mutual recognitions. The White Scarf being one of the most widespread and widely known.

In a medieval sense (not in terms of recognition and award), membership in an Order was more of a fraternity, not a ranking or title. If one were of sufficient repute, and if one were born into the right social class, one MIGHT be invited into an order - but that doesn't mean that the orders saw each other as equals, or that rank in one was rank in another. In that sense, the SCA system is roughly accurate - until the treaties come into it.

In the case of the East, it's local Kingdom Order for fencing is NOT the same as a White Scarf. The White Scarf carries a Grant, but no Eastern Orders carry a Grant. Some of the regalia and titles used are the same.

At the time of the creation of the Eastern Order for fencing, lots of promises of equivalence were made and discussed - by the time I became much less active they were not really observed as much. Perhaps things have changed.

As for your question of "would that not matter", let me make the analogy of a Euro in a dollar country - but it is limited to noting that we recognize a Euro has value, but you can't use it here. A White Scarf membership is NOT a membership in the Golden Rapier, but the Grant is the same the world over.

Yes, White Scarves are recognized in the East just like all other awards given out by other Kingdoms. Someone with a White Scarf who moves into the East and remains active in fencing is eligible for a Golden Rapier here as well. In fact, Don Matteo, a WS of Aethelmearc, just became a Golden Rapier of the East as well.

The list is by Rank of the combatants. Master Ernst Nuss von Kitzingen is listed with the consorts of Barons and Baronesses, where he should be given the sorting algorithm used.

Thank you. I just noticed that myself, while I was answering Vairavi.

Who gave Ernst precedence? He's just a herald. :-)

Morguhn II and Rowan II, Hanse II and Moruadh II (I think), and Darius I and Roxane I.

Nah. No one would give rank to a herald. Of that I am sure.

Ha. Elevating the staff. Ridiculous. That's like making a cobbler a Peer Of The Realm.

Next thing you know, the Baron's will try some kind of revolt. Never happen.

They're giving heralds all kinds of things these days. It's shocking.

It's to spite me for my involuntary retirement. :-) :-)

I'd have settled for a Maunche. :-)