East Kingdom, Crown List is out!

[liamstliam]

It's here and has consorts

This is not in specific Order of Precedence yet.

The dukes, counts, etc., are all group together, but they are not ordered.

I will undoebtedly have some thoughts later.

 

Comments

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Interesting (to me) that the further down the list I go, the less I know people. :-) I think I grow old.

I'm bothered to see that the list has the same couple twice, as they are fighting for each other (they should just appear once), and that in general the list is organized by rank of men, never women.

I think I grow old. :-)

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

ms_memory can explain it better, but from what I understand there's a series of "title groups", so all the Royal Peers are together, all the other Patent holders, all the Grant Holders, all the Award holders...etc. The list that was published has them grouped by title group but not organized by actual Precedence within those groups (it's just alphabetical right now)

And I think the other bits will get cleaned up after the list is confirmed.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

I'm an old war-horse herald. I know. :-)

But consider, for example, Ogedai/Nataliia. Ranked by his precedence, not hers. Consider that Gabriel/Sonja are listed once by his precedence, once by hers.

What should the precedence level of a couple be? Traditionally, it has been by the higher of the pair. In this case, however, it is clear to me that the precedence ordering (even though this is far from the final ordering) is skewed a lot by either gender bias or, perhaps, the combatant and not the couple's overall precedence.

I'd like to think it was the combatant's precedence - perhaps that would explain the list (like your position in it) better.

In any case, I'm feeling old. :-)

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

I assume they are all listed by the fighter's precedence (and I assume in the final list Gabriel & Sonya will only be on there once). I believe I was told once that the East has always gone by the Precedence of the Fighter.

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

Someone may have told you that, but they were mistaken.

I have seen it done with the order of precedence by couple (that is, whoever is higher).

(It is usually done by the fighters' precedence.)

Right now, if you go by fighters' rank, Lord Ulfr Stevenson will be 43rd or 44th. He got his AoA at War of the Roses.

If they go with the precedence of the couple, he's standing there at 10th, behind Count Griffyth and ahead of the highest-ranking knight (Kenric?), because he's fighting for Alethea.

[etherial.livejournal.com]

The list is by Rank of the combatants. Master Ernst Nuss von Kitzingen is listed with the consorts of Barons and Baronesses, where he should be given the sorting algorithm used.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I just noticed that myself, while I was answering Vairavi.

Who gave Ernst precedence? He's just a herald. :-)

[etherial.livejournal.com]

Morguhn II and Rowan II, Hanse II and Moruadh II (I think), and Darius I and Roxane I.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Nah. No one would give rank to a herald. Of that I am sure.

Ha. Elevating the staff. Ridiculous. That's like making a cobbler a Peer Of The Realm.

Next thing you know, the Baron's will try some kind of revolt. Never happen.

[ostgardraine.livejournal.com]

Who is Duke Achilles? Is he a transplant?

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

You know him as Hans.

[ostgardraine.livejournal.com]

I wasn't aware he changed his persona, thanks :)

[alphasarah.livejournal.com]

I just kinda went, "wow, what is this, 10 years ago?" ;^)

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

OK, IKA time... Can someone explain to this An Tirian: A) what the importance of this list is, and b) how it is generated?

My contribution: Assuming this is 'who gets to fight for the Crown', in An Tir the answer is 'whoever show up in armor on the specified day'.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

Former An Tirian here:

In the East they require that fighters and consorts submit a "Letter of Intent" (To Fight) prior to Crown Tourney. I think the cut-off deadline is a month before the event, but it is ultimately up to the discretion of the Crown.

I admit I am still not entirely certain *why* they do things this way (I've heard varying explanations from "It makes it easier for the Heralds" to "It makes it easier for the MoLs" to "They want to know people are serious enough to write a letter) but that is the way it's done here and in some of the other "Eastern Rite" kingdoms.

[anastasiav.livejournal.com]

"The Why"

1) The Crown has the right to deny anyone entry to the tourney if they think its a bad idea. This has been done for a variety of reasons, ranging from "you've only lived here a month" to "I hate you" but it makes for far less drama to reject them prior to the tourney than to reject them on the day of the tourney itself.

2) The East used to have (and maybe still has?) a rule that your membership has to extend a certain amount past the date of the event, to prevent a lapse. Less important than it used to be, but at one time a winner of Crown was denied his seat as prince because he was found not to have a valid membership when he won the tourney. Now they're able to check all that stuff in advance.

3) It makes it a lot easier on the MoL and Heraldic Staff to have a list in advance.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

1) I wonder if this isn't as big a deal in An Tir...if the Crown rejects someone the day of (which they have the right to do there as well) there's still an entire weekend of event (which includes a huge squires tourney) for the person to enjoy.

2) IIRC, they check the membership card of each fighter at the Lists table prior to line-up. It seems like it would be easy enough to have a "do not admit any fighter/consort whose membership expires prior to Date X" sign for the MoLs to go by.

3) I am genuinely curious, and am not trying to sound contrary, but how much extra work does that really require? What does having the list early enable you to do (as MoL, I know what it enables the Heralds to do).

Like I mentioned before, I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that Crown in the EK is a day event and a lot of people pretty much come to fight or be fought for and there's nothing else going on besides the tourney. Crown in An Tir is often over a 3-day weekend (Labor Day in September and something else in May), there's always a million other things besides the tourney, and the last one I went to (in 2008) had 1500 people in attendance.

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

#2 happened in An Tir (or maybe that should be 'happened as well', I'm not familiar at all with EK history), old timers still sometimes get all worked up about it.

[tonypatriquin.livejournal.com]

I had thought it was primarily for two reasons:

1) It makes it easier for the seneschal (and fighters) to confirm that entrants have met the membership and residency requirements.

2) It gives the Crown an opportunity (prior to the combatant having made the trip) to bar the combatant from participating. Which happens *very* rarely, but is the Crown's right.

Varavi, seeing you and Ernst listed gave me a big smile. Fight well.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

I'll try. I'm still waiting to see if my leg armor manifests in enough time for me to get a practice or two in.

[alethea-eastrid.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this is cause or effect, but it's ahellalot easier on the Heralds wrangling the procession (and one suspects on the MoLs as well) to have names (and thus precedence, or at least a solid start) in advance. That damned thing takes enough time as it is to set up; if we were doing it cold it would be after noon before there was a chance of fighting. With a sixty-odd person list, in October...finals in the dark are one thing, but we'd be looking at quarter-finals in the dark, and some very crabby cooks.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Can you remind me of your full name, so I can fix Ruger's card in the procession? Thanks.

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

I thought you were Mistress Tasha Dandelion.

Is that an alternate persona?

;)