East Kingdom, Crown List is out!

[liamstliam]

It's here and has consorts

This is not in specific Order of Precedence yet.

The dukes, counts, etc., are all group together, but they are not ordered.

I will undoebtedly have some thoughts later.

 

Comments

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

Usually, the Order of Precedence is determined by the fighter's precedence.

I have seen it done by the couple's precedence (highest member of the couple).

See the example about Alethea.

[artisticphoenix.livejournal.com]

I have never seen it done by the couple's precedence in all the times that I have been fought for. I joked about it once to explain to Ajax why we were so far up, but I was joking about it.

They also have some of the titles wrong, Ogedei is a Don and that is not listed and there was one other error, they didn't list that Elizabeth is a baroness.

You are right though, they often clean this up when they line us up, IF they line us up.

I am old school in that I think there should be some dedicated time to making this ABOUT the consorts as well as about the fighting. What I was told from way back is that fighting is FOR someone, that they are the inspiration.

The current system does not reflect this. Grumble.

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

I honestly thought there was a time when your peerage moved you and your consort up.

Maybe I got taken in by the Ajax joke. ;)

Caitlin admitted there were some rought edges. I suppose there's a balance in getting it close to perfect and in getting it out quickly.

[anastasiav.livejournal.com]

It has happened in the past. When I was still EK MoL (those where the days...) it was the "normal" way to do it. Ivan got pulled way up in the line the year he fought for Nicolette (her peerage predates his by a couple of years) although now that I think on it she might have been fighting as well....

[wldrose.livejournal.com]

As I have been lectured about today the east kingdom dosnt subscribe to the white scarf treaty so there are no Dons made or recognized in the east. it is courtesy and dosnt deal with precedence.

The don on the list has Don as part of there name not a fencer. (he is my sweeties squire)

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

*jumping on the grenade*

"Don" is a title conferred to those who receive the high order of merit award of the OGR.

The high orders of merit are ranked above the "regular" AoAs, so it is appropriate. If there was a specific title that went with Crescents or Maunches, then that would be approrpiate too.

Besides it's courtesy.

(This is not a knock on the list. It was put together and gotten out quickly. I am sure it will be all spiffy for Crown.)

[wldrose.livejournal.com]

bwahahah

I have heard this all day now I can tell him to shush.

thank you

ash

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Liam's got it partly right. I'm going to put on my Elmet Herald hat (Deputy for Heraldic Education) and fill in all the gaps.

There's a ruling from the SCA College of Arms from 1991 that anyone with an AoA can use the title "Don." If you look at the reserved alternative titles for Spanish persona established by the College of Arms, you see Don/Dona listed as the equivalent of "Lord." http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html#table2

So, if you have a Spanish persona, at least an AoA, and you're using the title Don or Dona, you are absolutely within the permissible practices of the SCA. Thus, "Don Luis de Castilla" and "Dona Estrella de los Confinos," to use two examples, are completely proper in their usages.

For reasons lost to the mists and fogs of history, courtesy practice across the SCA calls Golden Rapiers and White Scarves "Dons." Since those awards carry at least an AoA, that's kosher too.

If you don't have a Spanish persona, and you fence, and you're using the title "Don" without the benefit of the appropriate fencing awards, it would be considered vastly impolite. I don't know of anyone who's ever tried to do this.

[tonypatriquin.livejournal.com]

Ok Your Elmetness, is Liam also correct that OHMs rank above AoAs? I hadn't thought that was the case.

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

My countess, a heraldry wonk, says I am right.

But it's always good to check on me. ;)

[math5.livejournal.com]

The members of OHM go even before the court barons
http://op.eastkingdom.org/March/index.html

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

Only if the CB didn't carry a Grant, which doesn't seem to happen here often.

[math5.livejournal.com]

True.
That's why I added the link to the list to make sure there was no misinformation :)

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

It is complex. But you are a more-than-competent lawyer, so you can cope. :-)

In terms of rank, an AoA is an AoA, and according to SCA (Federal) law, they are all the same.

The Order of Precedence (how Kingdoms set up their order of march) is local to each Kingdom (State) law. In the East, should all things be equal, a person with an Order of High Merit and an AoA is marched before a person with an AoA. If two people match utterly, the time at which the award was given is used to break the tie.

I have, in fact, had to determine that an AoA was given in the East versus one given the same day in An Tir, and the An Tir one being given in morning court, came first. :-)

So, no: the OHM+AoA does not rank higher than an AoA. But it comes first in the order of march in the East. Take that OHM-AoA to another Kingdom, and no one will care. :-)

[tonypatriquin.livejournal.com]

"But you are a more-than-competent lawyer, so you can cope. :-)"

Thanks for that. I'll confess I had to read this twice :-) The Federal/State analogy is very useful.

And this is a fascinating and educational answer. I hadn't appreciated the distinction between rank and precedence. Thanks, Tibor.

re: and the An Tir one being given in morning court

[etherial.livejournal.com]

Did you take the Time Zone into account?

Re: and the An Tir one being given in morning court

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Yes.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

So, no: the OHM+AoA does not rank higher than an AoA

You are mistaken, my friend.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

I'd be glad of an explanation.

My reasoning was this: consider a person with an AoA and another with an OHM+AoA who moves from the East, to some other Kingdom.

Which of them comes first in a march of precedence in that Kingdom? As a general rule, the AoA is used, and whichever was bestowed first is of the higher precedence.

Here, in the East, we value our own very much, which is appropriate. So we march the OHM+AoA first.

So, by my understanding, the OHM+AoA does not rank higher than an AoA.

(Next up - we dice over whether a Patent truly outranks an AoA, if one gets literal with the law. LOL. Yours in Silverwinging.)

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

The best place to look to answer Precedence questions is here:
http://op.eastkingdom.org/March/index.html

Tibor answered your exact question.

[alethea-eastrid.livejournal.com]

...well, yes, but one traditionally uses an individual's preferred title (which can certainly be Don/Dona, in the case of an OGR), and the OGR is an Order of High Merit, so from a precedence PoV, the White Scarf Treaty is totally irrelevant in this situation.

[wldrose.livejournal.com]

thank you I have been hearing this all day (grumpy knight is grumpy)

[unique_name_123]

OK, not to further stir things up, but White Scarves are not recognized in the East? Usually Kingdoms recognize awards from other kingdoms, but below awards of the same level from their own Kingdom with matching AoA's, GoA's. So if someone has a White Scarf from one of the Kingdoms where it also comes with a Grant of Arms, would that not matter? (Or would one say "we do not recognize your White Scarf, but we will recognize the Grant of Arms part?)

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

In the most general case, Kingdoms respect foreign awards only insofar as they contain elements of awards that use the SCA definitions (Grant, Award).

Some Kingdoms have treaties with neighbors that specify and define the depth of mutual recognitions. The White Scarf being one of the most widespread and widely known.

In a medieval sense (not in terms of recognition and award), membership in an Order was more of a fraternity, not a ranking or title. If one were of sufficient repute, and if one were born into the right social class, one MIGHT be invited into an order - but that doesn't mean that the orders saw each other as equals, or that rank in one was rank in another. In that sense, the SCA system is roughly accurate - until the treaties come into it.

In the case of the East, it's local Kingdom Order for fencing is NOT the same as a White Scarf. The White Scarf carries a Grant, but no Eastern Orders carry a Grant. Some of the regalia and titles used are the same.

At the time of the creation of the Eastern Order for fencing, lots of promises of equivalence were made and discussed - by the time I became much less active they were not really observed as much. Perhaps things have changed.

As for your question of "would that not matter", let me make the analogy of a Euro in a dollar country - but it is limited to noting that we recognize a Euro has value, but you can't use it here. A White Scarf membership is NOT a membership in the Golden Rapier, but the Grant is the same the world over.

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Yes, White Scarves are recognized in the East just like all other awards given out by other Kingdoms. Someone with a White Scarf who moves into the East and remains active in fencing is eligible for a Golden Rapier here as well. In fact, Don Matteo, a WS of Aethelmearc, just became a Golden Rapier of the East as well.