East Kingdom, Crown List is out!

[liamstliam]

It's here and has consorts

This is not in specific Order of Precedence yet.

The dukes, counts, etc., are all group together, but they are not ordered.

I will undoebtedly have some thoughts later.

 

Comments

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

1) I wonder if this isn't as big a deal in An Tir...if the Crown rejects someone the day of (which they have the right to do there as well) there's still an entire weekend of event (which includes a huge squires tourney) for the person to enjoy.

2) IIRC, they check the membership card of each fighter at the Lists table prior to line-up. It seems like it would be easy enough to have a "do not admit any fighter/consort whose membership expires prior to Date X" sign for the MoLs to go by.

3) I am genuinely curious, and am not trying to sound contrary, but how much extra work does that really require? What does having the list early enable you to do (as MoL, I know what it enables the Heralds to do).

Like I mentioned before, I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that Crown in the EK is a day event and a lot of people pretty much come to fight or be fought for and there's nothing else going on besides the tourney. Crown in An Tir is often over a 3-day weekend (Labor Day in September and something else in May), there's always a million other things besides the tourney, and the last one I went to (in 2008) had 1500 people in attendance.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

The MOL usually puts the fighter's titles on his/her card as well, so they can be announced in the list by people who don't know everybody by sight :) So one of my duties is to get the list cleaned up in time to get the clean copy to the MOLs.

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

They've been neglecting the titles on the cards of late - but I wish they would include the titles.

If we were smart, we would also put phonetic pronunciations of the names on the cards *before* the event.

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

It's SEE-o-sam-HA, right?

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

Do fighters not need to check in at the MoL table when they get there to let them know they're actually in attendance? Make them fill out the cards themselves.

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Pre-printed cards are better if possible. One of the biggest reasons for mispronounced names at tourneys is the lousy quality of handwriting on the cards.

[zarhooie.livejournal.com]

As someone who's tried to herald with fighter-filled-out cards, let me be the first to say OH MY GOSH HORRIBLE IDEA. I think fighters go to the same school as doctors do for their handwriting skills. Even small tourneys where I know everyone, I still have a difficult time deciphering names.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

I'll try not to take that personally. I like to think I have very legible handwriting.

Unfortunately I've yet to see any reasons for the current system that don't, in actuality, boil down to "We're used to it being this way." Clearly the An Tirian MoLs and Heralds have found a way that they are used to and works for them, as well.

[zarhooie.livejournal.com]

I should have put "some fighters" rather than imply all fighters. I certainly know some fighters with excellent, clear, legible handwriting, but unfortunately they tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

One thing that must be considered when comparing one kingdom's policies/practices to that of another is the size. EK Crown list regularly runs well over 50 people. Northshield Crown list is lucky if it hits 20 (it's usually closer to 12-15). I don't know how big An Tir's Crown list usually is because it isn't posted anywhere that I can find it.

That is another benefit of having Letters of Intent: there's a record somewhere of who fought in what.

ETA: Oh! And with a list coming out roughly a month before the event, there is the possibility of having betting guides/programs and to allow Master Liam to speculate on who's going to take the whole thing.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

An Tir September Crown 2008 was 80 entrants.

[zarhooie.livejournal.com]

Hm. I'm going to go with magic heralds and Starbucks for $300.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

I'm more inclined to think it's a matter of scale of expectation WRT the amount of work one is signing up for. If heralding Crown tourney is X amount of work and has always been X amount of work, then you show up expecting to do X amount of work and it seems "natural". If heralding Crown has always been Y amount of work (where Y is a lesser amount of work than X) and you're used to doing Y amount of work then of course X amount of work is going to seem insane and impossible.

[zarhooie.livejournal.com]

I would like to see the tournament format that is used in An Tir for Crown. Northshield's changes every year depending on the whims of Their Majesties (this year it was best 2 out of 3 for all bouts), but I think other kingdoms it is always double elim or whatever.

Any ideas?

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

I seem to remember it being double elim. Maybe check with derekl1963 in a comment thread above?

[zarhooie.livejournal.com]

I've contacted An Tir's field herald deputy with this question. I think I'm smelling another interkingdom anthro paper forming.

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

An Tir regularly hosts Crowns with 50-75+ fighters in the Lists and has for years and years.

Because of the vast size of An Tir however, the size of the lists depend greatly on travel conditions and whether the Tourney is held downtown or in one of the far corners of the Kingdom.

There's a saying here that "who becomes King depends as much on where Crown is held as anything else".

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Well, we are used to doing it that way. More important, though, is that people have done things because they THINK they will work, and then again and again because, for one reason or another, it did.

Many years ago, I was asked to check memberships before Crown Tournament. That rule is based upon a person, who effed up their membership. So we want to get the names far enough in advance to not only CHECK memberships, but fix'em. We can do that.

And an older and experienced Kingdom Seneschal of the East has told me, in no uncertain terms, that some folks would fight for other folks, not even knowing their modern name. They pointed out that the muddle that comes from reigns where the Crowns fight within their own couple, was awful. The paper process and the advance notice gives BOTH of them some involuntary insight into how the other works, and processes information, and gives them a trial run to make sure that between the two of them SOMEONE gets the paperwork in.

I doubt like hell that was the reason any of this was introduced. Someone probably said "a month: that makes my life easy". But I also believe (and having been within the process, actually SEEN) that even this minor impediment and process has refreshed the minds of those that would compete.

Why do we do it? Because, it's a combination of brains and happenstance, that has not just worked, but worked well enough to repeat.

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

You probably don't write your name on your card with your gauntlets on, either. ;-)

[mollyrazor.livejournal.com]

Making fighters fill out any sort of paperwork is a good way to have paperwork you can't read.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

That must be one of the things that fighters in An Tir do when they sign up at the list tables.

[nicolaa5.livejournal.com]

#3 - As a formal Crown Tourney herald (in Ealdormere, but I suspect it applies in the East as well), knowing the list of fighters beforehand allows the list staff to do whatever they need to do to run a smooth list. This could include any or or all of the following:
--prepping cards with the fighters' names on them that are used to announce the bouts. Our list table here in Ealdormere pairs the cards together for each bout so that the list herald can make the announcements.
--prepping a shield tree or other visual "this is how the tourney is going" device
--having the names ready for the random draws that set up the lists themselves--either the first sets of pairings, or the order down the page and across for a round robin.

[rocksryan.livejournal.com]

As troubadour herald i can honestly say that having these 18 days to prep the cards, and practice pronunciation is a wonderful thing.

We don't have a shield tree, but that's a good project for later on down the road.

The East's first round is usually a challenge-in, so the MoLs have to work their butts off for the initial round's ordering and seeding.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

We've had shield trees.

MASSIVE P.I.T.A. for insufficient value, judging from how these projects fall by the wayside.

[anastasiav.livejournal.com]

2) It has happened to me that I had my proof of membership but I was not on the "official" list from Corporate, due to a billing problem on my end. Sadly, its the official list that counts, not the card in hand.

3) The biggest thing is it allows you to know roughly how many bye's there will be in the tourney, so you can prepare the trees more or less in advance. Certainly, there are a few no-shows on the day of, but knowing if you have a 31 fighter list vs. say a 68 fighter list (its happened) makes a big, big difference in how you prep your materials for the event. I personally also always pre-printed the cards so the heralds didn't have to read my sucky handwriting, but that's just me.

Also, in the dark ages, we used to have a "placard" with the arms of every fighter in Crown, and there were easels by the lists that the placards fit into. There was a guy who brought all the placards (and made new ones as needed) and who had volunteers who would put the arms of the "fighting" and "on deck" combatants next to the lists. It was a cool touch, but a lot of work (and heavy stuff!) and I don't think they use it any more.

[rocksryan.livejournal.com]

we had a printed paper version of the heraldry trees at each list field 2 or 3 years back which has since disappeared. It is another action item I have on my list of things to do while in office.