East Kingdom, Crown List is out!

[liamstliam]

It's here and has consorts

This is not in specific Order of Precedence yet.

The dukes, counts, etc., are all group together, but they are not ordered.

I will undoebtedly have some thoughts later.

 

Comments

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

*jumping on the grenade*

"Don" is a title conferred to those who receive the high order of merit award of the OGR.

The high orders of merit are ranked above the "regular" AoAs, so it is appropriate. If there was a specific title that went with Crescents or Maunches, then that would be approrpiate too.

Besides it's courtesy.

(This is not a knock on the list. It was put together and gotten out quickly. I am sure it will be all spiffy for Crown.)

[wldrose.livejournal.com]

bwahahah

I have heard this all day now I can tell him to shush.

thank you

ash

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Liam's got it partly right. I'm going to put on my Elmet Herald hat (Deputy for Heraldic Education) and fill in all the gaps.

There's a ruling from the SCA College of Arms from 1991 that anyone with an AoA can use the title "Don." If you look at the reserved alternative titles for Spanish persona established by the College of Arms, you see Don/Dona listed as the equivalent of "Lord." http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/titles.html#table2

So, if you have a Spanish persona, at least an AoA, and you're using the title Don or Dona, you are absolutely within the permissible practices of the SCA. Thus, "Don Luis de Castilla" and "Dona Estrella de los Confinos," to use two examples, are completely proper in their usages.

For reasons lost to the mists and fogs of history, courtesy practice across the SCA calls Golden Rapiers and White Scarves "Dons." Since those awards carry at least an AoA, that's kosher too.

If you don't have a Spanish persona, and you fence, and you're using the title "Don" without the benefit of the appropriate fencing awards, it would be considered vastly impolite. I don't know of anyone who's ever tried to do this.

[tonypatriquin.livejournal.com]

Ok Your Elmetness, is Liam also correct that OHMs rank above AoAs? I hadn't thought that was the case.

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

My countess, a heraldry wonk, says I am right.

But it's always good to check on me. ;)

[math5.livejournal.com]

The members of OHM go even before the court barons
http://op.eastkingdom.org/March/index.html

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

Only if the CB didn't carry a Grant, which doesn't seem to happen here often.

[math5.livejournal.com]

True.
That's why I added the link to the list to make sure there was no misinformation :)

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

It is complex. But you are a more-than-competent lawyer, so you can cope. :-)

In terms of rank, an AoA is an AoA, and according to SCA (Federal) law, they are all the same.

The Order of Precedence (how Kingdoms set up their order of march) is local to each Kingdom (State) law. In the East, should all things be equal, a person with an Order of High Merit and an AoA is marched before a person with an AoA. If two people match utterly, the time at which the award was given is used to break the tie.

I have, in fact, had to determine that an AoA was given in the East versus one given the same day in An Tir, and the An Tir one being given in morning court, came first. :-)

So, no: the OHM+AoA does not rank higher than an AoA. But it comes first in the order of march in the East. Take that OHM-AoA to another Kingdom, and no one will care. :-)

[tonypatriquin.livejournal.com]

"But you are a more-than-competent lawyer, so you can cope. :-)"

Thanks for that. I'll confess I had to read this twice :-) The Federal/State analogy is very useful.

And this is a fascinating and educational answer. I hadn't appreciated the distinction between rank and precedence. Thanks, Tibor.

re: and the An Tir one being given in morning court

[etherial.livejournal.com]

Did you take the Time Zone into account?

Re: and the An Tir one being given in morning court

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Yes.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

So, no: the OHM+AoA does not rank higher than an AoA

You are mistaken, my friend.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

I'd be glad of an explanation.

My reasoning was this: consider a person with an AoA and another with an OHM+AoA who moves from the East, to some other Kingdom.

Which of them comes first in a march of precedence in that Kingdom? As a general rule, the AoA is used, and whichever was bestowed first is of the higher precedence.

Here, in the East, we value our own very much, which is appropriate. So we march the OHM+AoA first.

So, by my understanding, the OHM+AoA does not rank higher than an AoA.

(Next up - we dice over whether a Patent truly outranks an AoA, if one gets literal with the law. LOL. Yours in Silverwinging.)

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

The best place to look to answer Precedence questions is here:
http://op.eastkingdom.org/March/index.html

Tibor answered your exact question.