East Kingdom, Crown List is out!

[liamstliam]

It's here and has consorts

This is not in specific Order of Precedence yet.

The dukes, counts, etc., are all group together, but they are not ordered.

I will undoebtedly have some thoughts later.

 

Comments

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

Former An Tirian here:

In the East they require that fighters and consorts submit a "Letter of Intent" (To Fight) prior to Crown Tourney. I think the cut-off deadline is a month before the event, but it is ultimately up to the discretion of the Crown.

I admit I am still not entirely certain *why* they do things this way (I've heard varying explanations from "It makes it easier for the Heralds" to "It makes it easier for the MoLs" to "They want to know people are serious enough to write a letter) but that is the way it's done here and in some of the other "Eastern Rite" kingdoms.

[anastasiav.livejournal.com]

"The Why"

1) The Crown has the right to deny anyone entry to the tourney if they think its a bad idea. This has been done for a variety of reasons, ranging from "you've only lived here a month" to "I hate you" but it makes for far less drama to reject them prior to the tourney than to reject them on the day of the tourney itself.

2) The East used to have (and maybe still has?) a rule that your membership has to extend a certain amount past the date of the event, to prevent a lapse. Less important than it used to be, but at one time a winner of Crown was denied his seat as prince because he was found not to have a valid membership when he won the tourney. Now they're able to check all that stuff in advance.

3) It makes it a lot easier on the MoL and Heraldic Staff to have a list in advance.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

1) I wonder if this isn't as big a deal in An Tir...if the Crown rejects someone the day of (which they have the right to do there as well) there's still an entire weekend of event (which includes a huge squires tourney) for the person to enjoy.

2) IIRC, they check the membership card of each fighter at the Lists table prior to line-up. It seems like it would be easy enough to have a "do not admit any fighter/consort whose membership expires prior to Date X" sign for the MoLs to go by.

3) I am genuinely curious, and am not trying to sound contrary, but how much extra work does that really require? What does having the list early enable you to do (as MoL, I know what it enables the Heralds to do).

Like I mentioned before, I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that Crown in the EK is a day event and a lot of people pretty much come to fight or be fought for and there's nothing else going on besides the tourney. Crown in An Tir is often over a 3-day weekend (Labor Day in September and something else in May), there's always a million other things besides the tourney, and the last one I went to (in 2008) had 1500 people in attendance.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

The MOL usually puts the fighter's titles on his/her card as well, so they can be announced in the list by people who don't know everybody by sight :) So one of my duties is to get the list cleaned up in time to get the clean copy to the MOLs.

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

They've been neglecting the titles on the cards of late - but I wish they would include the titles.

If we were smart, we would also put phonetic pronunciations of the names on the cards *before* the event.

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

It's SEE-o-sam-HA, right?

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

Do fighters not need to check in at the MoL table when they get there to let them know they're actually in attendance? Make them fill out the cards themselves.

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Pre-printed cards are better if possible. One of the biggest reasons for mispronounced names at tourneys is the lousy quality of handwriting on the cards.

[zarhooie.livejournal.com]

As someone who's tried to herald with fighter-filled-out cards, let me be the first to say OH MY GOSH HORRIBLE IDEA. I think fighters go to the same school as doctors do for their handwriting skills. Even small tourneys where I know everyone, I still have a difficult time deciphering names.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

I'll try not to take that personally. I like to think I have very legible handwriting.

Unfortunately I've yet to see any reasons for the current system that don't, in actuality, boil down to "We're used to it being this way." Clearly the An Tirian MoLs and Heralds have found a way that they are used to and works for them, as well.

[zarhooie.livejournal.com]

I should have put "some fighters" rather than imply all fighters. I certainly know some fighters with excellent, clear, legible handwriting, but unfortunately they tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

One thing that must be considered when comparing one kingdom's policies/practices to that of another is the size. EK Crown list regularly runs well over 50 people. Northshield Crown list is lucky if it hits 20 (it's usually closer to 12-15). I don't know how big An Tir's Crown list usually is because it isn't posted anywhere that I can find it.

That is another benefit of having Letters of Intent: there's a record somewhere of who fought in what.

ETA: Oh! And with a list coming out roughly a month before the event, there is the possibility of having betting guides/programs and to allow Master Liam to speculate on who's going to take the whole thing.

[mollyrazor.livejournal.com]

Making fighters fill out any sort of paperwork is a good way to have paperwork you can't read.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

That must be one of the things that fighters in An Tir do when they sign up at the list tables.

[nicolaa5.livejournal.com]

#3 - As a formal Crown Tourney herald (in Ealdormere, but I suspect it applies in the East as well), knowing the list of fighters beforehand allows the list staff to do whatever they need to do to run a smooth list. This could include any or or all of the following:
--prepping cards with the fighters' names on them that are used to announce the bouts. Our list table here in Ealdormere pairs the cards together for each bout so that the list herald can make the announcements.
--prepping a shield tree or other visual "this is how the tourney is going" device
--having the names ready for the random draws that set up the lists themselves--either the first sets of pairings, or the order down the page and across for a round robin.

[rocksryan.livejournal.com]

As troubadour herald i can honestly say that having these 18 days to prep the cards, and practice pronunciation is a wonderful thing.

We don't have a shield tree, but that's a good project for later on down the road.

The East's first round is usually a challenge-in, so the MoLs have to work their butts off for the initial round's ordering and seeding.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

We've had shield trees.

MASSIVE P.I.T.A. for insufficient value, judging from how these projects fall by the wayside.

[anastasiav.livejournal.com]

2) It has happened to me that I had my proof of membership but I was not on the "official" list from Corporate, due to a billing problem on my end. Sadly, its the official list that counts, not the card in hand.

3) The biggest thing is it allows you to know roughly how many bye's there will be in the tourney, so you can prepare the trees more or less in advance. Certainly, there are a few no-shows on the day of, but knowing if you have a 31 fighter list vs. say a 68 fighter list (its happened) makes a big, big difference in how you prep your materials for the event. I personally also always pre-printed the cards so the heralds didn't have to read my sucky handwriting, but that's just me.

Also, in the dark ages, we used to have a "placard" with the arms of every fighter in Crown, and there were easels by the lists that the placards fit into. There was a guy who brought all the placards (and made new ones as needed) and who had volunteers who would put the arms of the "fighting" and "on deck" combatants next to the lists. It was a cool touch, but a lot of work (and heavy stuff!) and I don't think they use it any more.

[rocksryan.livejournal.com]

we had a printed paper version of the heraldry trees at each list field 2 or 3 years back which has since disappeared. It is another action item I have on my list of things to do while in office.

[derekl1963.livejournal.com]

#2 happened in An Tir (or maybe that should be 'happened as well', I'm not familiar at all with EK history), old timers still sometimes get all worked up about it.

[tonypatriquin.livejournal.com]

I had thought it was primarily for two reasons:

1) It makes it easier for the seneschal (and fighters) to confirm that entrants have met the membership and residency requirements.

2) It gives the Crown an opportunity (prior to the combatant having made the trip) to bar the combatant from participating. Which happens *very* rarely, but is the Crown's right.

Varavi, seeing you and Ernst listed gave me a big smile. Fight well.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

I'll try. I'm still waiting to see if my leg armor manifests in enough time for me to get a practice or two in.

[mollyrazor.livejournal.com]

I strongly suggest you email him. ;)

[alethea-eastrid.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this is cause or effect, but it's ahellalot easier on the Heralds wrangling the procession (and one suspects on the MoLs as well) to have names (and thus precedence, or at least a solid start) in advance. That damned thing takes enough time as it is to set up; if we were doing it cold it would be after noon before there was a chance of fighting. With a sixty-odd person list, in October...finals in the dark are one thing, but we'd be looking at quarter-finals in the dark, and some very crabby cooks.

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

There were 80 entrants in the An Tirian Crown I went to. No clue how late they were fighting, but I recall similar lists in Crowns when I actually lived there and they were always done fighting by dark.

I am relatively certain An Tirian Heralds do not have magical super powers, so they must have some system whereby they can make it work.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Once upon a time, I heralded an entire tournament in Trimaris, of 93 fighters. They fought the byes as well, and it was double elimination. (It was not Crown.) If you do the math, that's a LOT of fights.

That list had a lot of organization behind it - and we started early. Each "round" was set up so that all fighters in it were expected to be armed and ready, and between rounds there was a defined break period. If you weren't ready the second time you were called for a bout, you lost.

The "1 loss" list was separate from the main list, so there were two lists running after the first round. We were done before dinner.

Eastern Lists have a tendency to start late, show a lot of patience for late fighters, and even though we set up 4 and sometimes 6 lists, by moving people around between them we tend to have a lot of waiting time and slack. Also, people do pay attention to the fights, so often there will be just one at a time. Fights can go long (I remember, years ago, one bout that lasted half an hour or more: legendary) and we don't continue to the next round until the current one is concluded.

We could make this more efficient, but it would be a lot less fun to watch.